Unity Bitchez: the evidence

OK.  All day, canadian gal had a diary up about a letter that Don Fowler and Alice Germond sent to intransigent Hillary supporters admonishing them to get behind Obama.  It was candian gal's contention that the letter was ineffective.  A long debate on the subject ensued.

Here's canadian gal's diary:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/23/1493 4/0576

And here's the letter:

Dear Democratic Friends:
2008 is a Democratic year-at all levels in all the states. The opportunity is ours. We just have to seize it.

We experienced an exciting, intense, sometimes difficult, campaign to nominate our presidential candidate. Now it's over. Barack Obama won.

I supported Hillary Clinton and am proud and pleased that I did. But she lost. Barack Obama won. It's over.

It is time for all Democrats, supporters of Senator Clinton and all other contenders for the nomination, to stand with him to secure his election and the election of Democrats at all levels of competition.

I must confess a bit of fatigue and irritation with people who continue to carp, complain, and criticize the results of the primary and lay down conditions for their support. The Los Angeles Lakers didn't establish conditions to recognize the Boston Celtics as NBA Champions; Roger Federer did not demand concessions before recognizing that Rafael Nadal defeated him at Wimbledon.

It is time to act in a mature and resourceful fashion. It's time to put the primaries behind us. It's time to support Barack Obama without conditions or demands.

It's time to WIN for Barack Obama, the Democratic Party, America, and our future. We have an unparalleled opportunity. I hope we will all do everything we can to seize the moment.

See you at the Inauguration.

Sincerely,

Don Fowler
DNC Member At-Large, South Carolina
Former Chair of the Democratic National Committee

Alice Germond
Secretary, Democratic National Committee

Candian gal questioned whether, given the tone of this letter, it is likely to be effective.  To my mind, this is not a point to be debated.  Its an empirical question.  Either the letter changes peoples minds or it doesn't.  So let's take a little survey, and find out.


Poll
Did the letter from Don and Alice change your mind about supporting Barack Obama for President?
No, I've always been an Obama supporter
No, I used to support Hillary, but she has suspended her campaign
No, the letter just made me cranky
Yes, I found the letter quite convincing. I don't know why I didn't see the logic before
No. I was thinking about checking yes, but decided that would be dishonest.
None of the above
All of the above

Votes: 32
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Hillraisers gave (none / 0)

20k to Obama last month.

that is a full .0036% of last months fund raising. Hillarys backers are truly on board.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:31:43 PM EST

Wrong. Hill Supporters gave atleast 1.8Million (2.00 / 2)

in June.

Sen. Barack Obama has posted his first campaign report since the end of the contentious Democratic primary battle, and political reporters and bloggers are already trying to ferret out whether donors to Sen. Hillary Clinton have been helping her formal rival, now the party's presumptive nominee.

The Post has now conducted its own analysis of how Clinton supporters directed their money in June. More than 2,200 Clinton donors became first-time Obama donors, giving him $1.8 million of the $52 million he raised last month. Of those, 355 contributed at least $2,000, for a total of $1 million.

The WaPo also writes why the original HuffPo article was mistaken as pointed out by the aides of both Obama and Clinton.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail /2008/07/21/hillary_donors_give_obama_18 _m.html


by louisprandtl on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (none / 0)

I look forward to supporting an Obama/Clinton ticket.


by dtaylor2 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:31:56 PM EST

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (2.00 / 1)

heh!


I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?
by William Cooper on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:27:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A web poll on one blog? (none / 0)

I don't think any big Clinton bundlers will be voting, so as a way to gather empirical evidence this seems a bit...flawed.


by JJE on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:54:45 PM EST

Which direction do you think the bias will go? (none / 0)


by dbrown04 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:14:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who knows? (none / 0)

but you aren't even sampling the people the letter was aimed at.


by JJE on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:33:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Should I take my poll to some Puma sites? (2.00 / 1)


by dbrown04 on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

if there are a lot of high-rollers on them (none / 0)


by JJE on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 10:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

hhmmm.... (2.00 / 1)

im not certain that your poll is enough to gather empirical evidence - but its a start.  hopefully you will be able to get some honest discussion out of this one.

to me its rather simple - in life and in politics, partisanship takes you to a point and then it becomes something more.  hitting people across the head is not effective.  anyway - rec'd.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:07:29 PM EST

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (2.00 / 1)

People participate in the democratic process for different reasons. The opposition appears to be more invested in getting the process right rather than the issues of the day. The letter again dismisses the opposition to being sore losers.

The letter reinforces my belief the DNC does not care about the democratic process. They care about getting the presumptive nominee they favored elected POTUS. There is nothing in the letter to convince me to help them achieve their goal.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:36:53 PM EST

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (2.00 / 4)

The real problem is that PUMA is not "more invested in getting the process right rather than the issues of the day". The problem is that PUMA is more invested in getting the process to give the "right" answer than anything else.

I still think the DNC could've avoided a lot of problems simply by saying "You know what, we said MI and FL were out at the beginning, they're still out now." By caving on that, they created an argument over people's perceptions of what may or may not have happened, if the election had been understood to matter when it occurred.

The DNC actually cared so much that the democratic process have the appearance of fair play that they gave a stack of unearned delegates to both sides, with Clinton receiving the lion's share. As I mentioned in a diary at the time, they came pretty darn close to giving a proportionate voice to those who voted.

But in the end we were left with the same situation: the "opposition", as you call them, did not get the result they wanted. They screamed, they shouted, they stormed off to their own corners of the web where they could get the echo chamber they wanted... But I never got the impression that they were concerned with any "right" answer that was not "Hillary". I realize not all of them were yelling "inadequate black male", but the loudest voices cornered the market on outrage and began throwing around scurrilous accusations. With that they created the impression that somehow getting delegates that weren't supposed to be awarded, but not as many as necessary to close the gap before the end of the primaries, was a slight against Hillary and women in general. That's still a fallacy of the greatest order.

The best case scenario would be that people read and understand the message of your sig line:

"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony

Only one party is going to help the Lily Ledbetters of the world. Only one party is going to put forth a candidate that will advocate for women's rights, equality and causes. No self-respecting woman, in fact no one at all, should wish for the downfall or work against the success of the party.

You see, the truth of the feminist movement, from college-aged friends of mine, is that they are no longer convinced that Hillary is and was their one shot at a female president. They're convinced that they will have one within their lifetime, so they didn't feel compelled to support Hillary. They went with the candidate that inspired them. They judged both candidates by their merits. Some went with Hillary, some with Obama.

But to say that the ideal of feminism was trampled on simply because the female candidate lost diminishes the entire movement. The movement was never about entitlement, but equality. About being judged on your merits. Hillary's campaign was less well run than Obama's. His message was clear the entire time (change) while hers shifted a number of times (inevitability, front-runner, tested, experienced, electable, finally to change). His money was well-spent, his advisors were better, his oration was fantastically inspiring.

Two great candidates ran. (I expressed earlier today that the primary was like choosing between Wonder Woman and Batman for your rescuer, and we can call George W. Bizarro for this analogy). In the end, though, one had to win. One candidate will have to take the mantle of those liberal causes that have been championed over time.

Both faced challenges from small-minded bigots in the media and both showed that they could expose and overcome them. The sexism and race-baiting were both really atrocious, but many people were also exposed to the reality and pervasiveness of the problem. Not to sound like GI Joe, but getting people to know it is there is half the battle when it comes to fighting intolerance.

To summarize, it was inevitable that 49.9% of the party was going to be disappointed. Unless you can show me evidence that the process was rigged (voter fraud, kickbacks to committee members for favorable votes, violations of rules and procedures), I'm not going to oppose the candidate elected by the rules agreed upon before the process began. And, in the absence of that evidence, I'm not particularly inclined to give the PUMA opposition credit for trying to get the process right instead of simply trying to get their candidate the win.


by TCQuad on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 12:18:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (2.00 / 1)

I judge the party by its actions. The party's actions say the good ol' boys club is thriving.

I don't believe rigging always materializes in the form of votes or rule violations. Rigging also comes in the form of what Dean, Clyburn, Pelosi, Brazile and others say. It comes in the form of telling a candidate to get out of the race. It comes in the form of setting timetables for superdelegates. It comes in the form of saying nothing about sexsim coming from the party and the media. It comes from the unprecedented treatment of a woman candidate that no male has been subjected. This primary showed the DNC with its thumb on the scale.

I used to believe the party advocated for women's rights, but not a single elected official stood against sexism during this primary and acknowledged the democratic women who phoned, wrote, protested the sexism that went on in this primary. Not a single one.

The actions of the DNC explains the chipping away of Roe. It explains why an equal rights amendment and equal pay have languished for 40 years.

Many of us were just like your college friends. This primary forced me to shed the idealistic view of the party. I now see the party for what it is and it is not the party it purports itself to be.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 01:07:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (2.00 / 2)

Many of us feel that your outrage is misplaced and mostly a figment of your imagination.

The worst of the sexism displayed towards HRC came from the media and talking heads. More of your outrage comes from viewing people that stayed neutral, like Howard Dean, as working against your candidate. It got so bad, that any negative comment against Hillary was viewed as sexist.

The primaries are over. I'm not in a mood to rehash the real and imagined slights given to one candidate. If you aren't happy with the party then work to change it. If you think there is a better party out there, then join it. If you can't find a party that pleases you and you don't want to change this one, then start a new one. Feel free.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 01:25:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The democrats are the real problem (1.66 / 3)

counterpunch.com/whitney07212008.html

excerpt:

What leftist or progressive is not totally fed-up with the Democrats cagey "bait-and-switch" hypocrisy? Voting the Democratic ticket is not a sign of "hope"; it's a sign of being a schmuck. The Democrats have done nothing to stop the war and will do nothing to stop the war. The Obama candidacy is merely a way to replace one group of genocidal maniacs with another. Who needs a charismatic, flannel-mouth glamor boy to lead us into battle when a senile fogy with "anger management" issues will do just fine.

Voters of conscience should reject that choice altogether. Just as they should reject the "lesser of two evils" theory which does not apply when ordinance is being dumped daily on innocent civilians. It has to stop.

Obama is not an antiwar candidate, that is merely a fiction maintained by his public relations team. In fact, he wants to beef up the military with 65,000 additional ground forces and 27,000 more marines. He's also stated that he will add "two additional combat brigades to Afghanistan" and encourage NATO to make "greater contributions--with fewer restrictions". In his op-ed he boasted, "As president, I will make the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban the top priority that it should be. This is a war that we have to win."

read more...


by suzieg on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 04:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

to the barricades! (none / 0)

down with the capitalist running dogs!  you have nothing to lose but your chains!


by JJE on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 10:29:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (none / 0)

Figment of imagination is imagining sexism from the media is worse than sexism from within the party.

To come to that conclusion provides further proof of the tone deafness of those who trivialize the issue.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 12:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (none / 0)

It's not a matter of whether sexism from one source should be viewed differently, it's a matter of the level of sexism from the two sources. The sexism within the party was much less common than that from outside the party. Sexism is not acceptable from any source. Neither is racism.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 12:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (2.00 / 1)

"The party's actions say the good ol' boys club is thriving."

Yeah, except most of the "good old boys" were Clinton people.

McCaullife, Wolfson, etc.

Dean is HATED by the good old boys club, I. E. the DLC.

But, if it keeps your primary war going a little longer....


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 09:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

By the following recent Obama's non-votes (2.00 / 1)

on women's issues and your above reasoning, you have confirmed our major reasons, as women, why we shouldn't vote for him:

Here are Backtrack Obama's 2007 and 2008 votes on 4 of the top 5 bills and amendments on abortion and on women:

Date: 09/06/2007 Bill Title: Prohibiting U.S. Assistance for Groups that Support Coercive Abortion
S Amdt 2707 Vote: NV Outcome: Amendment Adopted - Senate
(48 - 45)

Date: 10/18/2007 Bill Title: Prohibiting Funds for Groups that Perform Abortions
S Amdt 3330 Vote: NV Outcome: Amendment Rejected - Senate
(41 - 52)

Date: 12/18/2007 Bill Title: Inclusion of Consolidated Appropriations
HR 2764 Vote: NV Outcome: Concurrence Vote Passed - Senate
(76 - 17)

Date: 02/26/2008 Bill Title: Prohibiting the Funds in S 1200 from Being Used for Abortions
S Amdt 3896 Vote: NV Outcome: Amendment Adopted - Senate
(52 - 42)

Date: 04/23/2008 Bill Title: Equal Pay Bill
HR 2831 Vote: Y Outcome: Cloture Not Invoked - Senate
(56 - 42)

One of these amendments, S 1200: Health Care for Indigenous Peoples, S Amdt 3896: Prohibiting the Funds in S 1200 from Being Used for Abortions. It is to prevent monies for Indian public health funding to be used to fund abortion--except in cases of rape, incest or the health of the mother. Obama didn't vote on S Amdt 3896. He doesn't support the current law, Doe's definition, of the health of the mother. "Senator Obama believes that "mental distress" should not be covered by a health exception," said Nick Shapiro, Obama spokesman, reported by CBS News, July 9, 2008.


by suzieg on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 04:29:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: By the following recent Obama's non-votes (2.00 / 2)

Date: 09/06/2007 Bill Title: Prohibiting U.S. Assistance for Groups that Support Coercive Abortion
S Amdt 2707 Vote: NV Outcome: Amendment Adopted - Senate
(48 - 45)

Date: 10/18/2007 Bill Title: Prohibiting Funds for Groups that Perform Abortions
S Amdt 3330 Vote: NV Outcome: Amendment Rejected - Senate
(41 - 52)

Date: 12/18/2007 Bill Title: Inclusion of Consolidated Appropriations
HR 2764 Vote: NV Outcome: Concurrence Vote Passed - Senate
(76 - 17)

Date: 02/26/2008 Bill Title: Prohibiting the Funds in S 1200 from Being Used for Abortions
S Amdt 3896 Vote: NV Outcome: Amendment Adopted - Senate
(52 - 42)

Date: 04/23/2008 Bill Title: Equal Pay Bill
HR 2831 Vote: Y Outcome: Cloture Not Invoked - Senate
(56 - 42)

I can bet you $20 Hillary supporters would support a candidate with exactly that voting record.

How, you ask?

Because that's exactly the same as Hillary's voting record

As I mentioned previously, I compiled all the voting records for Clinton and Obama and got a database compiled to figure out how similar they were to each other. I searched through for the bills you listed.

Yes, they have exactly the same votes on the same bills you just listed. Can you understand now why I have problems believing that Hillary supporters aren't supporting Obama because of substantive issues?

If you want to oppose Obama, at least choose one of the votes that they differed on as your basis. I list them in the link provided for posterity.


by TCQuad on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 09:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BINGO (2.00 / 1)


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 11:22:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BINGO! (none / 0)


by suzieg on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 03:47:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Please tell me WHY (2.00 / 1)

you chose to use the word "Bitchez"?

It is bullshit that you use this word!


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:44:34 PM EST

Re: Please tell me WHY (2.00 / 1)

That word came directly from the title of Canadian Gal's title for her diary. Complain to her.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 01:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity Bitchez: the evidence (none / 0)

I'm distracted by your title. I'm not offended personally, but I think it could be offensive. Just sayin. Oh yeah, johnny mac is spending big time bucks in nevada.


Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 03:29:08 AM EST


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